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	<title>Comments on: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Web Development Again</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/</link>
	<description>Silk Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:22:13 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: F</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-2426</link>
		<dc:creator>F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 May 2011 16:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-2426</guid>
		<description>I envy you</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I envy you</p>
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		<title>By: Martijn</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-73</link>
		<dc:creator>Martijn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-73</guid>
		<description>Schrijft Rahul om 19:42. *zucht*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Schrijft Rahul om 19:42. *zucht*</p>
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		<title>By: Rahul</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-62</link>
		<dc:creator>Rahul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-62</guid>
		<description>Oeh, deze blogpost is om 9:42 gemaakt! Mooie ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oeh, deze blogpost is om 9:42 gemaakt! Mooie ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Martijn</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-60</link>
		<dc:creator>Martijn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 07:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-60</guid>
		<description>&quot;lack of real progress and transparency&quot;—dat vind ik het allersterkste punt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;lack of real progress and transparency&#8221;—dat vind ik het allersterkste punt.</p>
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		<title>By: Rahul</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-59</link>
		<dc:creator>Rahul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-59</guid>
		<description>You know you&#039;ve written a good blog post when the trolls start coming out. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know you&#8217;ve written a good blog post when the trolls start coming out. ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Salar</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-58</link>
		<dc:creator>Salar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-58</guid>
		<description>@Ben

We will definitely provide Chrome Frame as an option to Internet Explorer users who want to start up the editor. We think it&#039;s a great solution for people who might be unable or uncomfortable to switch browsers but open to using a plug-in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ben</p>
<p>We will definitely provide Chrome Frame as an option to Internet Explorer users who want to start up the editor. We think it&#8217;s a great solution for people who might be unable or uncomfortable to switch browsers but open to using a plug-in.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-57</guid>
		<description>Self-indulged amateurs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Self-indulged amateurs.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-56</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 05:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-56</guid>
		<description>...this blog post makes me want to switch back to Internet Explorer....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;this blog post makes me want to switch back to Internet Explorer&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 03:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-55</guid>
		<description>Why not just make your site dependent upon the chrome frame plugin? Does this not come at no cost to you since you will be Chrome compatible anyways? Users are accustomed to installing plugins for other media - doesn&#039;t seem like a huge stretch to have them install chrome frame to run your product if it is heavily dependent on JS for a decent experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why not just make your site dependent upon the chrome frame plugin? Does this not come at no cost to you since you will be Chrome compatible anyways? Users are accustomed to installing plugins for other media &#8211; doesn&#8217;t seem like a huge stretch to have them install chrome frame to run your product if it is heavily dependent on JS for a decent experience.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 02:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-54</guid>
		<description>@Volker Grabsch, @eyko:

Again, although those browsers are better, we can&#039;t force a user to switch. We throw up modal &quot;unsupported&quot; dialogs, we put information the top of the page, whatever. This doesn&#039;t change the fact that the majority of people currently using IE are using IE because they don&#039;t care enough to switch. They don&#039;t care about our wars for standards, they don&#039;t care about HTML5 compatibility. They want something that works when they go to it.

What Microsoft has done with IE is horrible. It&#039;s an abysmal excuse for a &quot;browser&quot;. But that doesn&#039;t change the fact that ignoring 58% of users is something that very few people can do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Volker Grabsch, @eyko:</p>
<p>Again, although those browsers are better, we can&#8217;t force a user to switch. We throw up modal &#8220;unsupported&#8221; dialogs, we put information the top of the page, whatever. This doesn&#8217;t change the fact that the majority of people currently using IE are using IE because they don&#8217;t care enough to switch. They don&#8217;t care about our wars for standards, they don&#8217;t care about HTML5 compatibility. They want something that works when they go to it.</p>
<p>What Microsoft has done with IE is horrible. It&#8217;s an abysmal excuse for a &#8220;browser&#8221;. But that doesn&#8217;t change the fact that ignoring 58% of users is something that very few people can do.</p>
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		<title>By: cak</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-53</link>
		<dc:creator>cak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 02:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-53</guid>
		<description>Internet Explorer is an absolute disgrace, good on your for doing this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Internet Explorer is an absolute disgrace, good on your for doing this.</p>
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		<title>By: eyko</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>eyko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 01:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-52</guid>
		<description>@Jack: 
&quot;But as a rebuttal- not meant to be argumentative, but thought-provoking: isn’t one of the big strengths of the idea of the internet to be accessible by anyone, anywhere? If you’re making a desktop app, it’s one thing to constrain yourself to a single OS, because you’re targeting a specific need by a specific audience; why bother making a web app at all if you’re limiting your reach? Save yourself time and make a desktop app that can leverage the power of a lower-level programming language.&quot; 

If I&#039;m not mistaken, Chrome (chromium) is cross-platform, and is available in both Windows, OS X, and Linux. Same goes for Firefox. Developing cutting-edge technology or software doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s platform-specific, it&#039;s as open as any other software can be, if you have the right tools. And the tools are generally *free*, and I&#039;d argue that they&#039;re also more secure than IE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jack:<br />
&#8220;But as a rebuttal- not meant to be argumentative, but thought-provoking: isn’t one of the big strengths of the idea of the internet to be accessible by anyone, anywhere? If you’re making a desktop app, it’s one thing to constrain yourself to a single OS, because you’re targeting a specific need by a specific audience; why bother making a web app at all if you’re limiting your reach? Save yourself time and make a desktop app that can leverage the power of a lower-level programming language.&#8221; </p>
<p>If I&#8217;m not mistaken, Chrome (chromium) is cross-platform, and is available in both Windows, OS X, and Linux. Same goes for Firefox. Developing cutting-edge technology or software doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s platform-specific, it&#8217;s as open as any other software can be, if you have the right tools. And the tools are generally *free*, and I&#8217;d argue that they&#8217;re also more secure than IE.</p>
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		<title>By: Volker Grabsch</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-51</link>
		<dc:creator>Volker Grabsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 01:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-51</guid>
		<description>Jack wrote: &quot;Isn’t one of the big strengths of the idea of the internet to be accessible by anyone, anywhere?&quot;

That&#039;s true, but that&#039;s whats _standards_ are for. When a browser deliberately ignores existing standards, the moral value &quot;accessible by anyone&quot; doesn&#039;t apply anymore. It&#039;s the browser&#039;s creator, _not you_, who decided to break that principle, so it&#039;s _not you_ who is not obligated to restore it.

Of course, there&#039;s also the principle to &quot;be conservative in what you send and liberal in what you receive&quot;, but that applies to _minor derivations_ from the standard. Is does _not_ require you to deal with every _broken_ client application.

(As an analogy, the principle of tolerance in society does not require you to tolerate fanatism and violence.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack wrote: &#8220;Isn’t one of the big strengths of the idea of the internet to be accessible by anyone, anywhere?&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s true, but that&#8217;s whats _standards_ are for. When a browser deliberately ignores existing standards, the moral value &#8220;accessible by anyone&#8221; doesn&#8217;t apply anymore. It&#8217;s the browser&#8217;s creator, _not you_, who decided to break that principle, so it&#8217;s _not you_ who is not obligated to restore it.</p>
<p>Of course, there&#8217;s also the principle to &#8220;be conservative in what you send and liberal in what you receive&#8221;, but that applies to _minor derivations_ from the standard. Is does _not_ require you to deal with every _broken_ client application.</p>
<p>(As an analogy, the principle of tolerance in society does not require you to tolerate fanatism and violence.)</p>
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		<title>By: ragi</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>ragi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-50</guid>
		<description>I dropped IE6 too</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dropped IE6 too</p>
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		<title>By: Kevine</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-49</guid>
		<description>Thank you!  I can&#039;t tell you how many hours of my life have been wasted on IE6, or worse, hours that were wasted on IE6 even after IE7 and even IE8 came out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you!  I can&#8217;t tell you how many hours of my life have been wasted on IE6, or worse, hours that were wasted on IE6 even after IE7 and even IE8 came out.</p>
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		<title>By: tek</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>tek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-47</guid>
		<description>Couldn&#039;t agree more, I dropped support for IE6 quite some time ago, I wouldn&#039;t mind dropping support for IE full stop but I don&#039;t have a need. IE6 is so old I felt that was worth it, good luck to you and respect for making a tough choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couldn&#8217;t agree more, I dropped support for IE6 quite some time ago, I wouldn&#8217;t mind dropping support for IE full stop but I don&#8217;t have a need. IE6 is so old I felt that was worth it, good luck to you and respect for making a tough choice.</p>
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		<title>By: lehenryjr</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-46</link>
		<dc:creator>lehenryjr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:08:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-46</guid>
		<description>...where Internet Explorer is quickly becoming a minority browser...

You&#039;re  right...
Internet Explorer is not the popular browser on my site and hasn&#039;t since I started it. Firefox continues to dominate the the stats on my site as the preferred browser. 

For Microsoft the single most embarrassing application they have ever made is Internet Explorer; it&#039;s symbolic of everything that&#039;s wrong at Microsoft. They think they know everything, how everyone is supposed to do things and they try to create the rules, but all they do is succeed in showing how lackadaisical and shortsighted they are.

Internet Explorer is 1% of Internet browsers that is just absent and a complete reject of web standards. And at this point, I could care less if they have a &#039;compatibility mode&#039; in v8. Just by offering an alternate mode they conceded they&#039;re completely mucked up. And regardless of changes they would make now, I’d never go back to Internet Explorer...

The numbers of users using Internet Explorer are diluted by the fact it&#039;s pushed to every Windows PC in the world by &#039;auto updates&#039;; that doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s the default browser. Or if they _have to use it_ for work- like me.

When the US government wants to use FireFox over Internet Explorer; that&#039;s really saying something.

I think the decision you&#039;ve made was not taken lightly, and from a business standpoint, I think you&#039;ve made the right decision. When 95% of the browsers out there support standards, you should go with what works consistently. 

Nice post.

Thanks,
LHenryJr.
www.lehsys.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;where Internet Explorer is quickly becoming a minority browser&#8230;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re  right&#8230;<br />
Internet Explorer is not the popular browser on my site and hasn&#8217;t since I started it. Firefox continues to dominate the the stats on my site as the preferred browser. </p>
<p>For Microsoft the single most embarrassing application they have ever made is Internet Explorer; it&#8217;s symbolic of everything that&#8217;s wrong at Microsoft. They think they know everything, how everyone is supposed to do things and they try to create the rules, but all they do is succeed in showing how lackadaisical and shortsighted they are.</p>
<p>Internet Explorer is 1% of Internet browsers that is just absent and a complete reject of web standards. And at this point, I could care less if they have a &#8216;compatibility mode&#8217; in v8. Just by offering an alternate mode they conceded they&#8217;re completely mucked up. And regardless of changes they would make now, I’d never go back to Internet Explorer&#8230;</p>
<p>The numbers of users using Internet Explorer are diluted by the fact it&#8217;s pushed to every Windows PC in the world by &#8216;auto updates&#8217;; that doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s the default browser. Or if they _have to use it_ for work- like me.</p>
<p>When the US government wants to use FireFox over Internet Explorer; that&#8217;s really saying something.</p>
<p>I think the decision you&#8217;ve made was not taken lightly, and from a business standpoint, I think you&#8217;ve made the right decision. When 95% of the browsers out there support standards, you should go with what works consistently. </p>
<p>Nice post.</p>
<p>Thanks,<br />
LHenryJr.<br />
<a href="http://www.lehsys.com">http://www.lehsys.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-45</guid>
		<description>Oh, sorry. I misunderstood and thought that Xopus was yours.

But as a rebuttal- not meant to be argumentative, but thought-provoking: isn&#039;t one of the big strengths of the idea of the internet to be accessible by anyone, anywhere? If you&#039;re making a desktop app, it&#039;s one thing to constrain yourself to a single OS, because you&#039;re targeting a specific need by a specific audience; why bother making a web app at all if you&#039;re limiting your reach? Save yourself time and make a desktop app that can leverage the power of a lower-level programming language.

I wouldn&#039;t buy a Mac solely so that I could use, say, a specific Video Editing software; I&#039;d rather find the best PC alternative. People aren&#039;t going to understand why the product doesn&#039;t work, and if you give them a helpful &quot;here, try an alternative&quot; dialog, they&#039;ll go elsewhere. The people who are using IE are the people who don&#039;t care about browser wars; everyone who does already knows that IE is the worst browser.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, sorry. I misunderstood and thought that Xopus was yours.</p>
<p>But as a rebuttal- not meant to be argumentative, but thought-provoking: isn&#8217;t one of the big strengths of the idea of the internet to be accessible by anyone, anywhere? If you&#8217;re making a desktop app, it&#8217;s one thing to constrain yourself to a single OS, because you&#8217;re targeting a specific need by a specific audience; why bother making a web app at all if you&#8217;re limiting your reach? Save yourself time and make a desktop app that can leverage the power of a lower-level programming language.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t buy a Mac solely so that I could use, say, a specific Video Editing software; I&#8217;d rather find the best PC alternative. People aren&#8217;t going to understand why the product doesn&#8217;t work, and if you give them a helpful &#8220;here, try an alternative&#8221; dialog, they&#8217;ll go elsewhere. The people who are using IE are the people who don&#8217;t care about browser wars; everyone who does already knows that IE is the worst browser.</p>
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		<title>By: Dark Daddy</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>Dark Daddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-43</guid>
		<description>Wow... little man with a big ego syndrome!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow&#8230; little man with a big ego syndrome!</p>
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		<title>By: Salar</title>
		<link>http://blog.silkapp.com/2009/10/love-web-development-again/comment-page-1/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Salar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.typlab.com/?p=152#comment-42</guid>
		<description>@Jack

Demo? We haven&#039;t released anything public yet. Maybe you&#039;re talking about Xopus, but that&#039;s another product (and Xopus works on Internet Explorer). Our own product will work on Google Chrome.

Regarding the lost potential market: that&#039;s obviously the biggest risk we&#039;re taking here. There are lots of profitable companies creating applications for the Mac, which has a smaller share than Firefox, Safari and Chrome combined. We feel that it should be possible on the web as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jack</p>
<p>Demo? We haven&#8217;t released anything public yet. Maybe you&#8217;re talking about Xopus, but that&#8217;s another product (and Xopus works on Internet Explorer). Our own product will work on Google Chrome.</p>
<p>Regarding the lost potential market: that&#8217;s obviously the biggest risk we&#8217;re taking here. There are lots of profitable companies creating applications for the Mac, which has a smaller share than Firefox, Safari and Chrome combined. We feel that it should be possible on the web as well.</p>
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